The Folly Chronicles
A mother daughter podcast looking at when historical figures clash with the societal norms of their times.
The Folly Chronicles
Dr. James Miranda Barry: Erased from history?
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In the 1800s, this brilliant medical surgeon of the British Army traveled the empire from South Africa to Canada, setting standards of care still used today. He even performed one of the first C-sections -- and both baby and mother survived! So after his death, why did the British Army seal his records for 100 years?
Sources:
Book: The Secret Life of Dr. James Barry by Rachel Holmes
Online article: How History Keeps Ignoring James Barry/History.com by Brynn Holland
Online article: The Extraordinary Secret Life of Dr. James Barry/History.com
Online article: Hektoen International: A Surgeon and a Gentleman: The Life of James Barry, by Mariel Tishma
Victorian Web Book Review by Joan Grant
Children’s book: Were I Not a Girl, by Lisa Robinson and Lauren Simkin Berke
How are you?
SPEAKER_01I'm good. I'm good. How are you? I'm fine. We haven't talked since you were on your way to the wedding. Oh my God.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So it's been a week. Did you find anybody there with a safety pin to help you with your broken strap?
SPEAKER_02I you know when I did, I just tied it in the front and then just it with my hair. And it was just like whatever. Yeah. Maybe it looks a little uneven on the top, but it wasn't like too noticeable.
SPEAKER_01So no, I wouldn't think so. Yeah. But I know how busy your schedule is. And if you want to bring it when you come to visit, it's not my dress. You're kidding.
SPEAKER_02You snapped the strap. Hold on. Okay. So I didn't snap the strap. I had I had it uh sewn it myself um to make it fit me. And you know, oh I actually have to pick it up from the dry cleaners. Thank you. Thank you for reminding me. Um it and you know, not like very well because I was just temporary fix. Yes, got it. And then the taxi on the way there, it then the thread came undone. And so then the one strap stayed, and then the other one was like too loose. Gotcha.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha. Did did you steal from Jackie's closet again?
SPEAKER_02Jeanette's closet. Jackie's going to a wedding and she went through all my jewelry and she's borrowing my jewelry. So that's a it was in cake in this friendship.
SPEAKER_01I understand. I understand. Okay. So it sounds like everything's good with you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. How about you? How are you about?
SPEAKER_01I'm fine. Yep. Everything's good. Okay. And I cannot wait until we launch into this episode. Okay. It's a two-parter. Two-parter. Two-parter.
SPEAKER_02I am very excited.
SPEAKER_01Yep. I I just cannot tell you how awesome and inspiring this person is.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, on that note, hi, and welcome to the Folly Chronicles, a mother-daughter podcast looking at historical figures who clash with the societal norms of their times. I'm Belle the Mom. And I'm Gwen, the daughter. Welcome. Welcome. Okay, so who are we talking about today?
SPEAKER_01We are talking about Dr. James Miranda Barry. And I am just going to blow your minds.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I'm super excited.
SPEAKER_01You buckled in?
SPEAKER_02I buckled in. Oh yeah. Strapped in.
SPEAKER_01So Dr. James Berry was one of the most influential doctors in the Georgian and Victorian era of Britain. In 1813, he began his career in the British Army as a medical assistant and for 46 years traveled the empire the empire from South Africa to Canada, becoming an expert in the treatment of venereal disease, think horny young soldiers. Okay. The treatment of typis and dysentery. Think hot climbs. And in midwifery, famously performing one of the first successful C-sections ever, with both mother and baby surviving. Surviving. Wow. Okay. So he is rocking it. Yes. Side note the parents named the baby after him.
SPEAKER_02Oh, as they should.
SPEAKER_01A lifelong bachelor. He raised eyebrows in his younger years for his hot temper, flamboyant clothing, and his outrageous flirting with other officers, women, resulting in the ad duel or two. In his older years, he raised those same eyebrows for his hot temper, flamboyant clothing, and the entourage that trailed behind him wherever he went. An entourage that included a silent man servant carrying a sun parasol over his head. A sun parasol that matched his outfit, mind you. Oh my god, a series of poodles, all with the name of Psyche and a goat. Oh, yes, a goat.
SPEAKER_02Hold on, because we have to talk about that. He had parasols that matched every single outfit. And so I'm just like picturing all these like amazing, extravagant looks that he had. And then not to mention, you skipped over the fact that he had a silent manservant just to remind him.
SPEAKER_01Yes, all will be revealed. Okay. Okay, so your interest is piqued.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Dr. James Barry retired on July 19th, 1859, at the distinguished rank of Inspector General of Hospitals, the second highest medical office in the British Army.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_01And after his death, the British Army tried to erase his existence, sealed his records for 100 years, whoa, and attributed his professional successes to others.
SPEAKER_02No.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and I'm sure there's a reason. Let's find out why. Dr. James Barry himself once said, When I was a boy, I was told that when I began a story to begin at the beginning and continue to the end. But we are going to begin James Barry's story at the end when he was 75. Okay. Retired from the British Army, he was impoverished and renting homes at a dentist's home on Margaret Street in London during the stifling summer of 1865. He was sick with dysentery, a recurring illness for him, attended by his manservant and guarded by his dog Psyche. No idea where the guy was.
SPEAKER_02Long gone at that point.
SPEAKER_01He died in the early hours of July 25th at 4 a.m. 1865. His manservant called a char woman to confirm the death, then took Psyche and vanished into the dawn.
SPEAKER_02Sorry. Do we have I need information? We need to do a whole podcast on the man serving. What's going on there?
SPEAKER_01There are uh some details, but we'll get into that later. Although the good doctor had repeatedly stated that he wished to be buried immediately following his death, and in the clothes that he died in, the char woman began preparations for burial, which included washing the body. And that's when she discovered that Dr. James Barry had the anatomy of a woman. Oh she also swore that being an expert as a mother of nine children, she could determine that by the stretch marks on his stomach that he had had a baby at some point.
SPEAKER_02Oh my God.
SPEAKER_01Knowing the doctor's military rank and status, the servant determined that someone would want to hear the story and sold it to the newspapers. James had been posted all over the British Empire in his capacity of doctor. The news of this discovery exploded all over the British Empire. And that's when James' life began to be rewritten because the British Army was mortified. It quickly moved to change the narrative, stealing James Berry's records for 100 years and attributing his successes to others. Let me give you one example, Gwen. Although James Berry had modernized care protocol in hospitals and prisons throughout the empire, emphasizing sanitation, that credit was given to Florence Nightingale, who started her career about 30 years after him. The irony is this during the Crimean War, James publicly lambasted Florence Nightingale for the lack of adequate sanitation in her section of the Barracks Hospital in Scutari. She actually wrote to her sister about the incident, calling James Barry a brute, and wrote, I've never met anyone so harsh.
SPEAKER_02Whoa.
SPEAKER_01So I agree that the discovery after James Berry's death is newsworthy, but only because it makes his remarkable life well so much more remarkable. To try to avoid confusion and telling this story, I'll mostly use James Berry's birth name for the first part, and then we'll switch later to use some form of his chosen name for the latter part. Then I'll use the pronoun he, the pronoun that he used for himself, even if he felt he had no option. Ready to find out more?
SPEAKER_02I'm my you five minutes in, and my mind is blown. So yes, I'm ready for more.
SPEAKER_01James Berry was born in Cork, Ireland, on November 1st, 1790. Although the year of his birth isn't entirely certain because record keeping really wasn't a thing then. He was assigned the female sex and named Margaret Ann Bulkley, the second child of the grocer and local custom official Jeremiah Bulkley and his wife Mary Ann. His family included an older brother John and eventually a younger child named Juliana. The Bulkley's grocery store did well for them and the family was established and comfortable. In 1797, when Margaret was seven and brother John was 14, the Bulkley set John up as an apprentice to a lawyer in the larger town of Dublin. This required a steep upfront fee to pay the lawyer for John's training. However, John discovered that he liked the nightlife of the big city so much more than working in a stuffy law office, he abandoned his apprenticeship, squandering his parents' money. Oh, buddy. In 1803, when Margaret was 13 and John was 20, John fell in love with a woman of a higher class and begged his parents to provide him with a lavish wedding and to set him up with a large farm for him to make his living. Daddy Jeremiah did. This was his oldest child, his only son. Big mistake. John was not a lawyer, John was not a farmer. The Bulkleys lost everything. Jeremiah was thrown into debtor's prison. No when released, hightailed it into the ether. Rumor had it that he headed to the West Indies to make his fortune.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god. So hold on. What a selfish little shithead. I can't believe it. And he, the way that that action just like ruins the family name. So entitled. Yes, so entitled.
SPEAKER_01So entitled. It was now 1804, and Ma Marianne was left alone with two children, penniless and frantic, to secure a future for Margaret.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, classic that the woman has to bear the brunt of all of this. Yes, left behind.
SPEAKER_01In Victoria, England, the choices for young women were limited to marriage or teaching as a governess. Marianne chose the latter for Margaret, perhaps because she didn't think her daughter was marriageable, or perhaps because Margaret was exceptionally smart. But there was a problem with the choice of governess. You needed the right education, and the for the right education, you needed money. They didn't have it. Mary Ann set aside her pride, put on her big girl panties, and wrote a letter to her estranged brother, a successful artist living in London who rubbed shoulders with the elite like Ben Franklin and the Prince of Wales. Actually, she had Margaret write it, which the teen disclosed at the bottom of the letter, telling her uncle that her mother had difficulty writing because of a tremor in her hand. The uncle's name was Are you paying attention? James Berry. Ah, there we go. To distinguish between the two James Berries, I will call the elder Uncle James. Yeah. Let's do a quick overview of this charming guy. And when I say charming guy, I mean a turd. Uncle James was a grump, an eccentric, a political radical in his thinking. He caused such warm and fuzzy feelings among his London neighbors, they they whispered he was an old wizard and threw things at his house. He was a gifted artist.
SPEAKER_02What'd you say? So they're just like egging his house all the time.
SPEAKER_01Truly. He was a gifted artist who believed that the artist had a responsibility to society. Hold on to that thought, and was a one-time professor at the Royal Academy of Arts of England. But the council found his classroom rants against fellow artists and the establishment so annoying that they petitioned King George III to bounce him right out of there. That is so funny. Everyone is just like hates this dude. And the king did, making Uncle James the first professor ever to be expelled from the institution. This did nothing to improve his personality.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no introspection, no, like, maybe I should change my ways. Maybe maybe it's a me problem.
SPEAKER_01So along came Marianne's letter slipping gently through the mail slot of Uncle James' door on Great Castle Street in London. How did this esteemed gentleman respond when his destitute sister pleaded for help? That's right. Essentially, don't let the screen door hit you.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So apparently, responsibility to society was one thing, while responsibility to family was quite another. This moment must have been bleak when Marianne realizes that her son, husband, and brother, her closest male relatives, the ones that have all the power in this day and age, had abandoned her and her younger, younger children to ruin. This poor woman.
SPEAKER_02And I know that she is resilient and smart and is going to figure it out, but I just it's just it classic. There's been a theme in a lot of our podcast episodes of these men being freaking little buttheads.
SPEAKER_01Hi. History tells us that in 1809, a James Miranda Barry enrolled in one of the most highly regarded medical schools in the world, the University of Edinburgh. Margaret Ann Buckley had transformed to this new identity, this new life, just six years after this desperate moment. So, what the heck happened between 1803 and 1809? Okay. We will never know all the details. But this is what we do know. In the spirit of any little bit will help, Mary Ann took Margaret, age 16, along from Ireland to London to claim it. Side note, Juliana was left in the care of a prominent Quaker family, the Penroses. James Barry never saw Juliana again, and it's questionable whether Mary Ann did either. We'll talk more about this later.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's devastating. I don't know if I want to hear it.
SPEAKER_01In London, the two MAs met the uncle, well, met the late Uncle James friends, including the aristocrat David Stuart Erskine, who was the 11th Earl of Bacon, who was very well socially connected, the revolutionary Venezuelan exile General Don Francisco de Miranda, known for his insatiable sexual appetite and his enormous library, and the scholar and personal physician of James Berry, the gentle thinker, Dr. Edward Fryer. Although Mary Ann's brother was a turd, his friends were not. And for whatever reason, they took an interest in this desperate duo and decided to help sculpt Margaret's future. How? Yeah, I want to know. An article in the Gentleman's Magazine in 1806 gives us a clue, stating that the men were collaborating on a book called The Works of James Berry Esquire, filled with selected prints of Uncle James' artwork along with his essays and correspondence. Erskine was quoted in the magazine saying this project was, quote, with the intention to publish for the advantage of indigent relatives of the departed artist. I think we can guess who the indigent relatives were, right? Right, right. The proceeds would go a long way toward getting Margaret into that governess position. Fryer opened his library for Margaret's use. She devoured the books there. Don Francisco de Miranda also opened his library to the teen. She devoured the books there. And somewhere along the line, a scheme was cooked up that bypassed the goal of governess in a cloud of dust and even bypassed the identity of Margaret Ann Bulkley, a scheme that was breathtakingly bold. Who came up with the idea? No one will ever know for certain if it was Margaret herself, but three years after Uncle James died in 1809, at the age of 19, James Miranda Berry was in Edinburgh, enrolled in medical classes.
SPEAKER_02Wow.
SPEAKER_01Note James middle name's middle name was Miranda, clearly inspired by the revolutionary general.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Hold on, I know because we have to pause here because that was so much to process. I feel like I'm listening to like a movie. Um, but also didn't they have any extra money of the proceeds for the youngest daughter or child? Her mom was like, Well, dang, I can save one child, and I guess it's gonna be Margaret. Sorry, so the younger one. Um, that being said, this gang of characters are so interesting. Just like so interesting. Yeah. Okay, keep going. I'm fast. You ready? Ready to move on? I'm ready to move on. I mean, no, I'm like, this is insane, but yes, I'm ready.
SPEAKER_01So James Barry settled into campus and into school life for a year. Marianne, whom he introduced to his new school acquaintances as his aunt, stayed with him as a chaperone, then returned to Cork. So we know the money was in place, we know the education was in place, but how did the physical transformation take place for Margaret to succeed in becoming James Barry? It had to be more than ditching long skirts and petticoats for a pair of trousers. Yeah. Fate seemed to help out. The emergence of the young James Beary synced with the deliberately outrageous fashion of dandyism that embraced a masculinity emphasizing an effeminate look. A typical look was of laced ruffles, jackets with stiff tails and high collars, extravagant hats over hair dyed dark brown or black, or worn over wigs powdered gray or white. Elbows were turned inward toward the body, and a dandy's face had to be completely shaven. To appear unshaven, would have been regarded as the act of an intolerable coxcomb and resented as such. Oh, so she this worked out perfectly. It worked out perfectly. Because a professional acquaintance of James later said Barry had not a hair on his face and never had. James was the perfect dandy. Wow. One outfit he wore during this time included a briskly cut emerald striped jacket, its cuffs decorated with buttons, and its shoulders stiffly padded, worn over a square vest of embroidered maroon silk and embellished with a starched yellow muslin cravat.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's very colorful. No, but I love it. She's having so much fun. Yeah, yeah. People saw him coming. But you know what? Kind of also smart in a way where you if you draw attention to yourself, it's like almost in a way a disguise if you're hiding in place, hiding in plain sight, exactly.
SPEAKER_01He dyed his hair red or more a red wig. He dyed the heels of his boots to match stacked heels to make himself taller.
SPEAKER_02Oh, nice. That's my guy.
SPEAKER_01Even yeah, something that some of us short people know about, right? A trick we've learned.
SPEAKER_02Yes, oh yeah. That's yeah, a trick that's been around for the ages. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Even with his embrace of contemporary fashion, James was probably considered to be odd by his fellow students. He was obsessed with sanitation, was a vegetarian, and drank milk daily for health purposes. He's really like ahead of his time. Well, contrast that to the students who were very much in their time, who were out drinking, spending time in brothels, and taking opium. One student wrote that James was remarkable by the persistency with which he avoided his fellow students.
SPEAKER_02He's like, I don't want to be associated with any of these brutes.
SPEAKER_01Instead, he submerged himself in study. He wrote, I have my hands full of delightful business and work from seven o'clock in the morning until two the next. Wow.
SPEAKER_02But here's the here's the thing is that sh he didn't take his education for granted because he was never just given one. He had to work so hard and he wasn't gonna squander this versus all the other boys in his class. Who by the way, University of Edinburgh is an amazing institution, and yeah, they're partying and doing drugs and just kind of like throwing it away. It makes total sense because they had a support system, right? They probably were all rich and yeah, assumed that this was their path because it was and full of entitlement, full of entitlement, yeah.
SPEAKER_01James not only took the required classes for his degree, but took extra classes in dissection. The peace, the fees paid for James' cadaver cutting class went in part to the quote resurrection men who may or may not have been procuring bodies from grave robbing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that's a because where else would you come up with the bodies? Bodies, yeah, you're going to all the poor grave sites and just digging up the poor people.
SPEAKER_01And by the way, most people who did these extra classes became ill, they could only do a couple or so before dropping out because when you're cutting into these bodies who were, I mean, they were probably a little ripe, right? Yeah, they were exuding all these noxious odors and gases. And James Barry never twitched. Whoa, stomach of iron. Cutting up cadavers, no doubt, helped him years later in Cape Town when he encountered a desperate woman unable to deliver her baby through the birth canal when he successfully performed the c-section.
SPEAKER_02Wow. Was that like the first that's the first recorded C-section?
SPEAKER_01Not the first recorded one, but one of the first. And often when someone had tried to do a C-section, either the mother or the baby died. Wow. Yeah. Wow, that's I mean, truly amazing. If anyone looked at James suspiciously in his student days, it wasn't because they questioned his sex, but because they questioned his age. In fact, his professors believed he was too young to take his exams, outright refusing him. When Lord Erskine heard about this potential disaster, he rode in on his white horse. Well, he wrote a letter to the school and said, James Barry is a well-disposed young man and worthy of your notice and advice in his studies. It will be kind of you to look to the latinity of his thesis. Although he is much younger than usual, from what I have observed, he is likely to entitle himself to his degree by his attainments. He means to go by invitation of General Miranda to the Caracas. Whether the professors wish to appease the aristocrat Lord Bacon, or whether they were impressed with the mention of General Miranda, or both, the professors allowed James to take his exams.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they didn't have any problem taking his money when he was enrolled in the university. The heck.
SPEAKER_01Good point. In 1813, James submitted his 40-page medical dissertation, which he dedicated to Erskine, the Lord Bacon. The thesis was unconventional because it focused on the female body, which even now gets short shrift for study. Right. He wrote about the femoral hernia, which occurs in the groin and disproportionately affects females. During this era, babies with undecided testicles were frequently misdiagnosed as having hernias and were usually assigned the female sex at birth. In actuality, they may have been male or intersex. In fact, James Barry may have been intersex or felt he had been given the wrong sex assignment. Perhaps his thesis was a way to understand himself more deeply.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yeah, but also that queer people and intersex people have been around for millennia. Like this is taking place in 1819, was when he was born. He was 1790. 1790. Like it just goes to show that this is not a new trend or whatever, but it's it's been established in history for that is correct.
SPEAKER_01In 1812, at age 22, James received his degree in medicine. Yay. Everything was going to plan. Okay, not everything was going to plan.
SPEAKER_02He's the son that has dad wanted, by the way.
unknownSorry.
SPEAKER_02I'm just saying, like, he's the like, you know, the all the hopes and dreams that they poured into their eldest son. He's the one that's like actually slaying it. Yeah. Couldn't have said it better.
SPEAKER_01James had intended to go to Venezuela after graduation to join General Miranda. Miranda had gone back to his home country two years earlier to lead the movement for Venezuela's independence from Spain. But after a series of unfortunate events, he landed in a prison cell.
SPEAKER_02Uh uh, what did he what did he get up to?
SPEAKER_01Well, he ended up making uh writing a treaty with Spain that inflamed his fellow revolutionaries, and so he felt he didn't have any choice, but they felt he did, and so they threw him into a cell.
SPEAKER_02Better than being beheaded or whatever.
SPEAKER_01Well, he did die there. Oh. But that sucks. Anyway, James did not go to Caracas. Instead, in July of 1813, at the age of 23, he began his military career in the British Army as a hospital assistant with a brief assignment in Plymouth, England. In 1815, when he was 25, he was posted to Cape Town, the capital of South Africa. This posting was for 10 years his longest military assignment in one place. It would be an exciting and tumultuous decade for James in both his professional life and his personal life. He met someone who contributed to both, who helped him push through his aggressive changes in medical protocol, and who opened the doors of society for him. Someone who replaced Erskine as his white knight, another aristocrat, the 45-year-old governor of Cape Town, Charles Somerset. If this decade was tumultuous for James, it was also tumultuous for Somerset, largely because of James. So tumultuous that the Cape Town community began whispering about these two prominent members of society. Whispers that became so loud they reached the top brass across the Atlantic Ocean in England. The head honchos told Somerset to rectify the situation immediately. Even told him what kind of fix they would accept. No one could have guessed that the fix would be no fix at all, and that scandal awaited, threatening the reputations and careers, even the lives of both Somerset and James Barry. Goodness, the drama. Is that okay? Is that all? That's where I'm leaving it.
SPEAKER_02What is what? This is where you're leaving it.
SPEAKER_01That is exactly where I'm leaving it.
SPEAKER_02It's only been like five minutes.
SPEAKER_01Well, let me tell you just a little bit more about dandyism because it is just so funny. Um so uh clearly dandyism was embraced not just by James Barry, but the big city shops had everything to cater to this new obsession. And can you possibly guess what part of the anatomy was really focused on? That I don't know if James had the same emphasis. I didn't see anything that that mentioned it, but many of the dandies focused on this one anatomical feature to enhance. Any guesses about what that could be? Like keep it clean. It's a bulge all, right? But the big city shops had the must-have of the day for the elite male, the bulging calf. They helped them stimulate it. I mean, the bulging calf was considered a real turn-on, and the shops offered pads for men's stockings and even strap on false calves to require that muscled look.
SPEAKER_02Oh my god, they'd be so jealous of my calves. I've got very muscular calves. I'll show you right now. Do you see that? Do you see that calf?
SPEAKER_01Okay, thank you. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02One fashion magazine of like us into like the girls in 2000s, like stuffing their bras and being made fun of. And yet these men were being so silly with little enhancements for their legs.
SPEAKER_01One fashion magazine complained about displays of these items in storefront windows. Quote, how foolish of them to hang their padded stockings on their doors and windows, letting everyone in on the secret. A young man could hardly enter a drawing room without everyone looking at his legs to see if they were natural or false.
SPEAKER_02Like, so dumb people walking in their rooms and being like, are his calves natural? He's got small naturals. Oh my gosh. Wow. She just goes to show fashion. Trends are always just like built off of nothing. What's trendy right now is not going to be trendy in like five years, you know.
SPEAKER_01This was such a big thing in London that anybody visiting the city, their must-go-to place was Hyde Park, so that they could watch all the dandies who were just flitting about the park that were just walking in groups because it was just so crazy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So not everyone was adopting this. So when the people who were young, right? Yeah, right, right. It's like the equivalent of like some crazy like Gen Z trend that were all like, what are they doing? That's so funny. People just go to like it's like when I would go to Central Park to watch the LARPers, and you're just like watching them. Do you know what LARPing is? I do that role play. So it's this group of people that like dress up in like chain mail and like as like you know, uh warriors or whatever, and they have swords really clubs and they like fight each other, but there are a bunch of rules to it or whatever. And I don't I tried looking it up, like there's like seeing if there was like a schedule or if there was a community that would post when they would be because I just happened to be like in Central Park one day and watched it for like over an hour. It was so much fun, and I've never seen it since. Oh, that's crazy! Yeah, so much fun, really cool. But yeah, you're watching them and you're like, oh my gosh, like this is such an interesting way of life.
SPEAKER_01And also, there was a lot of embellishment. Like I mentioned that um James jackets had buttons that embellish the cuffs, yeah. The uh dandies also uh had rings and clutch snuff boxes. That was just a thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, interesting, so flamboyant. I love this for them.
SPEAKER_01Maybe it'll come back.
SPEAKER_02I think we should bring it back. Oh yeah, definitely. Well, a lot of guys that skip leg day, so and they've got these up muscles and then these skinny little chicken legs, so maybe we should bring that. Really feel that deeply. Wow. Oh, I'm obsessed with this story. I'm so excited to learn more. Okay, well, that will have to wait for part two.
SPEAKER_01Okay. Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening.
SPEAKER_00Thanks for listening, everyone. Will the producer here, just chime in in at the end to say uh this has been part one on our episode of Dr. James Barry, and part two will come at you guys next month. So stay tuned, and we will see you then.